Curse

Cirian · Mar 16, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

We all know that two warrior sets are king right now:

- a single piece of knight's/ascalon for the global -2 damage redux
- the rest in gladiator's armour for the energy and +20 vs physical

Now, I see the 'basic' stats of warrior armour being AL80, +10 vs physical. Each set of armour adds an additional bonus as follows:

Ringmail/Chainmail : +10 vs physical
Ascalon/Knight's : -2 damage reduction
Wyvern/Plate : +5 armour
Gladiator's : +7 energy, +10 vs physical

As we can see, the Gladiator's armour has overwhelming bonuses, as not only does it posess the extra energy other classes' +energy armour have, but it gets an extra +10 vs physical thrown in over the ascalon and plate armours too.

As an aside, warrior's collector armour is unique in that it has a bonus above the 'base' stats, but then warriors are also unique in that their helms have bonuses beyond the normal +1 skill that other classes have. A Gladiator's helm for instance has +1 tactics, +1 energy, +20 vs physical, radically better than say a necromancer's Wicked scar with a mere +1 curses.

What I'd like to see regarding the warrior armours is:

- the -2 damage redux of ascalon/knights becoming a local bonus, so you need to wear a full set for total coverage
- the gladiator's +20 vs physical being reduced to +10 in line with the other armours - OR - the other armours (knights, plate etc.) getting +20 vs physical to match Gladiator's, making +20 the 'base', much like ranger armour has a base +30 vs elements.

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Some similar oddities exist among other class armours too:

- the Mesmer's +15AL 'while casting spells' bonus is global, making anything other than gloves unnecessary. Either the bonuses should stack (for +60AL - bear in mind this is the class with Fast Casting, perversly reducing the time this bonus does anything) or the effect should be made local to make a full suit attractive.

- Mesmer and Monk +10 vs physical armours have harsh -energy penalties tied to that flimsy bonus. Gladiator's armour gets an extra +10 vs physical and an energy boost instead of penalty

. With Factions armours on the way, these -energy penalties should probably be removed to make them more attractive to use.

- Necromancer necrotic/tormentor holy vulnerabily stacks, making the gloves and boots especially unattractive. Perversely, a full suit adds +20 to the damage suffered from even a low level aloe's 'wand' attacks; ironic when being hit for 21 to 22 damage. The vulnerability should either be made local (+5 extra damage when the piece is hit), or capped at a global +5 additional damage for a full suit.

- Monk wanderer armour +5 vs elemental is too low a bonus; the bonus should be +10 to make it attractive vs the other types.

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Currently only warriors have extra bonuses on their helms. It would be nice if the other classes had extra bonuses and 15k versions too.

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That is all.

Peace

Trylo · Mar 17, 2006, 02:48 AM // 02:48

ok i think thats ok but also theres a secret math involved in armor so something doesnt go horribly wrong, im sure of it!

ps MONK: Judges Top, Judges Pants, aesthetic tat arms, aesthetic tat legs... hmm seem more attractive yet? (most spells and attacks either hit legs or chest with the armor + and only 1/4 of the hits to the legs/head (1/8 each) the rest going to the +armor ones and the tats put u back to normal!)

Winterclaw · Mar 17, 2006, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Gladiators also have it nice when it comes to the 15K armor. They don't have to buy a helmet like the other 3 types do. :|

I say make glad's armor 60 or 70 AL, but plus 10 energy and plus 1 or 2 pips. That'd make it a fair tradeoff.

Undivine · Mar 17, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

All very good suggestions Cirian. The thing about warriors is they are much more dependant on their armor than any other class. For that reason, I can see why they were a little more generous with warrior armor.

But of course, they then got silly and buggy and etc. etc. as you pointed out. It is pretty annoying that Rogue armor for mesmer has the energy penalties. Mesmers get abused all the time.

And the +15 AL while casting, even if it is global, is pretty crappy since most of our spells are cast in under a second with Fast Casting. I'd rather a 5% or 10% dodge bonus while casting. That's the sort of thing that'd be useful. And it kind of belongs to the theme of the mesmer. Eles get + AL against their chosen element. Mesmers interrupt, and so it would make sense that mesmer can avoid interrupts better.

SaintGreg · Mar 17, 2006, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Quote:

And the +15 AL while casting, even if it is global, is pretty crappy since most of our spells are cast in under a second with Fast Casting

As a squishie you should be kiting most any time you aren't casting, greatly increasing the effective bonus for the +15 AL armor.

Zui · Mar 17, 2006, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Gladiators armor isin't overpowered, +6 energy when coupled with +1 mastery helm and ascalon boots, +5 if you're a hammer warrior and add in stonefist gauntlets.

Warriors have the least energy regen of any class. Rangers have +3 energy regen, + expertise.

Every other class has 4 regen and more energy, but less armor.

I do agree with you on the necromancers tormentors being slightly excessive, but if you nerf it too much now necromancers have 70 base al vs everything except holy damage. Nothing except tormentors armor would be used, except maybe bonelace in PvE in areas that are almost exclusively populated by ranger-type monsters...

With the nerf of the LT helm, it's no longer a true issue, 1/5 less hex time won't effect a warrior that much, especialy since they're especialy vunrable to hexes, more so than any other class. Nearly any necromancer, and many mesmer hexes can make them useless in PvP, requiring alot of hex removal.

As for warrior armor being overly "strong" as some see it, they are the only class that is effectively limited to melee only attacks. Being so, they are always an easy target to be attacked. Either in PvE or PvP, warriors are always the targets closest to the enemy, or closest to your team. If you look at it, anet has also given them absorb runes, because they're always open to the possibility(in PvP) and probablility in PvE of taking damage.

As for giving mesmers armor, mesmers are not required to use fast casting, however it is a great help. Mostly, mesmers will be playing hexes, in PvE or PvP, pvp because energy denial really isin't all that hot vs a compitent monk..

Now, undivine while that idea may work against a ranger inturupter, with the fast casting attribute, and relative distance from ranger inturupters, the flight time of the arrow even with read of the wind and favorable winds will still be meaningful at least 1/4 of a second. Not to mention ranger inturupts are 1/2 second casts, and they have an "aftercast" so to speak. So thats 3/4 sec to inturupt a spell. Another mesmer, could simply inturupt them with any number of the 1/4 casting time mesmer spells, which don't have any flight time. If you're speaking PvE, why is your mesmer even close enough to be inturupted, or even being targeted on a routine basis for that matter? Oh and, distortion(physical inturupt only), mantra of resolve.. Pwn inturupters too.

Oh, winterclaw, on an afterthought, if glads armor gave +1 or +2 energy regen, warriors would be able to spam non-adrenal attacks, or cast spells with some frequency. After all monks have 4 energy regen, while they may have a larger energy pool, if they cast any more frequently over a sustained period of time, they can't sustain it on the energy pool alone. The energy regen, and energy managment skills are key. Warriors do posess energy managment skills, and adrenal attacks. But I must say, if gladiators armor was buffed like that, every warrior, even those who wear 5 pieces of knights/ascalon cause they still think it stacks would now be using gladiators armor. Even if it only had 60 al.

Good thread, but many of the balance changes suggested are simply too much, too little, or in disregard of the class the armor is for.

I'm not opposed to the changes on the ascalon/knights items, or on the tormentors. But as you look at it, is the bonus so amazing, and are those types of armor required to be used in every situation? The answer for both is no, but I will admit the ascalon boots is far greater than gladiators boots.

Winterclaw · Mar 17, 2006, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Yeah, but then they'd be non-warriors armor wise and the real ones would be able to have a field day with them, spam or not.

Align · Mar 17, 2006, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Gladiators armor isin't overpowered, +6 energy when coupled with +1 mastery helm and ascalon boots, +5 if you're a hammer warrior and add in stonefist gauntlets.

Then it's the others that are underpowered. Warrior armor sets needs some shuffling around to make them equal in usability...

Undivine · Mar 17, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Seems I have to defend myself here. Mesmers often get attacked because at the very least they need to be within casting range of their enemies, which is the aggro circle radius, in order to be effective. As well, if a mesmer is going anti-caster rather than anti-tank, he has to get well in there as enemy casters will be at the back as well. This is the reason why mesmers have all those defensive mantras.

I'm well aware of the spells one can use to avoid interruption, and I use them myself. I'm not even suggesting that mesmers really have a problem with getting interrupted. But a dodge bonus seems much more appropriate on a mesmer than +15AL while (fast) casting. If it was on an ele or a necro, that I could see. A dodge bonus, meanwhile avoids not just interruption, but everything else that an arrow can do.

The fact is, if you're getting attacked then you are running, not casting (unless you're casting Ineptitude or Signet of Midnight, in which case you have armor for around half a second). That armor sucks.

Keep in mind I'm arguing with the asumption that the armor is supposed to be local, not global. The fact that you only need the gloves for the effect is a bug, not an intended design.

Cirian · Mar 17, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Align

Then it's the others that are underpowered. Warrior armor sets needs some shuffling around to make them equal in usability...

That's my point exactly

I can't seriously consider wearing plate over gladiator's right now - and really I'd be happier to see plate get some love rather than gladiator's getting a little nerf. I like gladiator's the way it is

It does seem weird that a skimpy outfit gives more physical defence than a full suit of plate though!

I think AL85 +20 vs physical would be fine for plate with those monster AL100 and stance armours just around the corner

twicky_kid · Mar 17, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Warriors are not overpowered. Most dmg is coming in the form of armor ignoring dmg. Gladiator's is not chosen for the armor quality its because the energy. Even at 80 +10 it would still be a better choice than the alternatives. It just so happens to have 80 + 20 so more reason to choose it.

I don't see the point of adding more armor vs elemental since that only affects air, fire, and water. There are not enough ele's that do dmg in the current metagame to warrent a change. Warriors deal enough dmg to each other as it is so no reason to reduce the vs physical.

Warriors biggest weakness is energy so anything that is going to help energy is going to chosen over alternatives. Say they remove the +energy from glads and add +1 regen (non-stackable). That would be better than the +5 energy. In 15 seconds you would have regained that 5 energy after that its all profit.

There is no way to balance it without completely destroying it or giving us other alternatives for energy.

This may not have been an intended thing on the global affects of armor but if Anet wanted to change it (bug) they would have done so by now. Accept as part of the game and not a bug now. Bugs are handled immediatly given their priority. Anything that affects pvp will be changed quickly. After a year of the game is safe to say that global affects are here to stay.

Align · Mar 17, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

I'm not sure you read the thread, twicky.
Gladiators is BETTER than all the others, hands down. That's an issue, because apart from the "basic" armor(in warriors case, 80+20vs phys) there should be a reason to use all available sets(obviously not at the same time). Balance, y'know?

twicky_kid · Mar 17, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Align

I'm not sure you read the thread, twicky.
Gladiators is BETTER than all the others, hands down. That's an issue, because apart from the "basic" armor(in warriors case, 80+20vs phys) there should be a reason to use all available sets(obviously not at the same time). Balance, y'know?

Yes I know. The only thing that gives it the edge is the energy. Defense wouldn't matter because I would still choose the energy over def. Let your monks do their jobs to keep you alive. Energy is the most important aspect for wars.

No energy means no IAS and running speed (exception to rush and battle rage, no one uses BR).

Align · Mar 17, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Fair enough. But the others are still teh sux.

twicky_kid · Mar 18, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Align

Fair enough. But the others are still teh sux.

Yes they do.

If you look at the new armors I'd still choose knights/glads.

Cirian · Mar 28, 2006, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Ok, well during the factions preview I went to the Kurzick armourer in the capital and lo and behold, Knight's and Plate armours had been buffed!

Kurzick Knight's Armour is up to +20 vs Physical instead of 10 (AL80 +20 vs Phys, damage redux)
Kurzick Dreadnaught (Plate) Armour is now AL90 instead of 85 (AL90 +10 vs Phys)

And! It's all in the same skin (same as PvP Sentinel armour), so much like FoW armour you can pick your stats and not look like a patchwork freak!

Juk3n · Mar 28, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Ive got it A Gladiator Helm matching the armor but with NO WEAPON +1 mod, and u only get the FULL ENERGY of the other peices of armor if u wear the whole set, that way, if u have all tahst extra energy + armor vs phys then u have to forfit 1 attribute mark? wouldnt this solve the unbalance?